Route around M6 Thelwall

Post by --Tom--
I need to plan a route From Knutsford, Cheshire to avoid the M6 Thelwall
Viaduct which I will need to use daily soon

It would help to know where you are trying to get to.

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Paul MULLEN

2004-08-14 06:24:30 UTC

Tom

Knutsford --> A50 Through High Legh, Across M6 @ Poplars 2000, continue on
into Warrington Town centre (Downside is you have to deal with Bridgefoot
Island - A pain in itself) then take A49 North Across M62 and then go right
at next Roundabout and go along Winwick Link Road and rejoin M6 N/B at J22

Down sides are 1. Bridgefoot island 2 - Occasionaly get caught with the
Bridge at Manchester ship canal being off for about 10-15 mins

Have fun

Post by --Tom--
Hi,
I need to plan a route From Knutsford, Cheshire to avoid the M6 Thelwall
Viaduct which I will need to use daily soon
There are a number of options as far as I can see. I have tried two so far!
Option 1) Go along the M6, use the Viaduct and suffer tailbacks/stop starts
due to congestion.
Option 2) Use the M6 up to the Junction 20A (M56) and then follow the M56 to
the Manchester Ring Road (M60). Then go back round to destination using M61,
through Bolton etc. Tried this today and to say it was painful was an
understatement. Spent at least an hour on the M60 alone doing about 5mph!
This option is worse than just suffering the wrath of the Thelwall Viaduct!
Option 3) From knutsford use the A50 upto "Hugh Leigh" and take the B5159 up
I will try Option 3 on Monday. Any other tips/ideas? Anyone know if the
A50,B5159,A57 are congested roads?
Cheers

MeatballTurbo

2004-08-16 12:12:34 UTC

In article <yeiTc.11$***@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net>, ***@tesco.net
says...

Post by Paul MULLEN
into Warrington Town centre (Downside is you have to deal with Bridgefoot
Island - A pain in itself) then take A49 North Across M62 and then go right
at next Roundabout and go along Winwick Link Road and rejoin M6 N/B at J22

yeah, that sounds not too bad.

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PeterE

2004-08-14 06:38:36 UTC

Post by --Tom--
I need to plan a route From Knutsford, Cheshire to avoid the M6
Thelwall Viaduct which I will need to use daily soon

In my experience the problem with the Thelwall viaduct is long queues on the
approaches. Once you're on the viaduct itself the traffic has sorted itself
out and tends to flow reasonably smoothly although only at the 40 mph speed
limit.

If you can manage to join at 20 northbound or 21 southbound you may be OK.

Both the M60 and the Runcorn-Widnes Bridge have roadworks at the moment so
can't be regarded as reasonable diversions.

--
http://www.speedlimit.org.uk
"The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime
and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of civilisation in any
country." (Winston Churchill)

David Thornber

2004-08-14 10:18:40 UTC

Post by PeterE

Post by --Tom--
I need to plan a route From Knutsford, Cheshire to avoid the M6
Thelwall Viaduct which I will need to use daily soon

I've been using the Runcorn-Widnes bridge sometimes as an alternative to
Thelwall when coming home of an evening (Salford to Chester-ish.) If
you see the traffic queuing right the way up the M6 slip road, then you
can almost guarantee Runcorn will save some time, although on Friday
afternoons it's diabolical. I'd imagine the northbound queue is pretty
horrific most mornings though - it can be bad enough when the bridge is
operating normally.

A useful detour (if you're stuck with M62W to M6S over Thelwall) is to
come off the 62 at J11 and go cross-country to J21. It can be slow
going in parts, but it cuts out the queue for the roadworks. In fact it
seems that the traffic joining from J21 is the real hold-up to the
southbound carriageway, so only do this if you don't mind being part of
the problem <g>.

My best advice if this is going to be a regular journey is to buy a
TrafficMaster YQ2. I've had mine (and the YQ before it) for longer than
I can remember now, and wouldn't be without it. I use it every day to
decide whether M56/M6/M62 is a better route than M56/M60. When both are
awful, I have the option of taking the A50 and crossing over to the A57
(long queues just before it meets the M60 though) or crawling through
Partington and Carrington. The YQ is also good at exposing the
misleading advice handed out by the motorway (mis)information signs.
Some of the quickest journeys I've had over Thelwall of late have been
when the signs have warned of half hour delays, and so most people have
tried to find alternative routes.

If I were inclined to believe in conspiracy theories, then I'd be seeing
one now. At present, it seems that there's no sensible way over the
Mersey and the ship canal without encountering major roadworks. Even
the middle of Lymm had been shut for roadworks the last time I tried it.

--
David Thornber

Paul Weaver

2004-08-14 12:16:28 UTC

Post by --Tom--
I need to plan a route From Knutsford, Cheshire to avoid the M6
Thelwall Viaduct which I will need to use daily soon

Hows warburton bridge nowadays? I havent done that trip regularly for 5
years.

Post by David Thornber
A useful detour (if you're stuck with M62W to M6S over Thelwall) is to
come off the 62 at J11 and go cross-country to J21. It can be slow

A57 through Birchwood - it's single carriageway for about 3 miles, dual
carriageway over the M6, turn left and down towards woolston, then back over
the motorway to join at 21.

About 7 or 8 islands along the route, with traffic coming out of the science
park, risley, culcheth etc. having priority over you.

Andy Lord

2004-08-14 13:34:00 UTC

Post by Paul Weaver

Post by --Tom--
I need to plan a route From Knutsford, Cheshire to avoid the M6
Thelwall Viaduct which I will need to use daily soon

Hows warburton bridge nowadays? I havent done that trip regularly for 5
years.

Post by David Thornber
A useful detour (if you're stuck with M62W to M6S over Thelwall) is to
come off the 62 at J11 and go cross-country to J21. It can be slow

A57 through Birchwood - it's single carriageway for about 3 miles, dual
carriageway over the M6, turn left and down towards woolston, then back over
the motorway to join at 21.
About 7 or 8 islands along the route, with traffic coming out of the science
park, risley, culcheth etc. having priority over you.

It's the A574 through Birchwood. Trouble with this route is that when it's
bad on the viaduct the queue to join southbound at J21 can take longer than
if you'd have stayed on the motorway. There's 11 roundabouts to negotiate
and the lack of correct use of indicators is endemic. Even before the
problems on Thelwall it could take over 30 minutes to do this journey at
peak times.

Andy Lord

2004-08-14 07:51:37 UTC

The wife reported a 30 minute delay crossing Warburton bridge today because
of a 12 inch deep puddle at the Warrington end! Every time the traffic on
Thelwall gets really bad the queue to cross Warburton bridge gets
ridiculous.

To be honest I'd stick with the viaduct, it's annoying but it's infinitely
better than the alternatives. From Knutsford, if I knew the viaduct was bad,
I'd probably use the A50 and join the M6 at J20 at the head of the queue.

The northbound delays aren't generally as bad as the southbound.

Andy

FatSod

2004-08-14 07:34:55 UTC

I'm afraid your stuck with the Thewall Viaduct.
Frustrating as it is, it's the best route.

Think yourself lucky you dont have to use the
M60 everyday. It's getting that bad I'm sure
Samaritans will start patrolling it soon.

There really is a desparate need for a couple
of extra routes over the Ship Canal. Possibly
one of which could be to extend the Manchester
Airport motorway link northwards over the canal
to the M61 crossing the M62, and via the Leigh
by-pass.

It would certainly help ME on my daily journey
from Leigh to Stockport.

........ But like I said, YOUR stuck with the Thewall.

You could always write a letter to Santa this year. :-)

Let's all have a good cry together.

Fatsod.

Brimstone

2004-08-14 07:52:34 UTC

Post by --Tom--
Hi,
I need to plan a route From Knutsford, Cheshire to avoid the M6
Thelwall Viaduct which I will need to use daily soon
There are a number of options as far as I can see. I have tried two so far!
Option 1) Go along the M6, use the Viaduct and suffer tailbacks/stop
starts due to congestion.
Option 2) Use the M6 up to the Junction 20A (M56) and then follow the
M56 to the Manchester Ring Road (M60). Then go back round to
destination using M61, through Bolton etc. Tried this today and to
say it was painful was an understatement. Spent at least an hour on
the M60 alone doing about 5mph! This option is worse than just
suffering the wrath of the Thelwall Viaduct!
Option 3) From knutsford use the A50 upto "Hugh Leigh" and take the
I will try Option 3 on Monday. Any other tips/ideas? Anyone know if
the A50,B5159,A57 are congested roads?

Move house.

PeterE

2004-08-14 08:25:19 UTC

Post by --Tom--
I will try Option 3 on Monday. Any other tips/ideas? Anyone know if
the A50,B5159,A57 are congested roads?

Move house.

He could also try using public transport. Because that's sure to meet his
journey requirements in a convenient, reliable and cost-effective way, isn't
it?

--
http://www.speedlimit.org.uk
"The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime
and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of civilisation in any
country." (Winston Churchill)

Brimstone

2004-08-14 08:29:12 UTC

Post by PeterE

Post by --Tom--
I will try Option 3 on Monday. Any other tips/ideas? Anyone know if
the A50,B5159,A57 are congested roads?

Move house.

He could also try using public transport. Because that's sure to meet
his journey requirements in a convenient, reliable and cost-effective
way, isn't it?

I don't know, is it? Since hasn't told us his starting point nor his
destination it's difficult to make a sensible decision, just as it's
difficult to offer a sensible route for making the trip by car.

Pete Smith

2004-08-15 06:28:01 UTC

In article <cfkign$2c0$***@hercules.btinternet.com>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

Post by PeterE

Post by --Tom--
I will try Option 3 on Monday. Any other tips/ideas? Anyone know if
the A50,B5159,A57 are congested roads?

Move house.

He could also try using public transport. Because that's sure to meet
his journey requirements in a convenient, reliable and cost-effective
way, isn't it?

Why should that make any difference? We're told that Public Transport is the
clean, convenient way of getting from wherever you are, to wherever you want
to be. The Government & Transport 2000 said so, so it _must_ be true.

Pete.

PS. This post contains sarcasm.

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Paul Weaver

2004-08-15 08:55:49 UTC

Post by Pete Smith

Post by Brimstone
I don't know, is it? Since hasn't told us his starting point nor his
destination it's difficult to make a sensible decision, just as it's
difficult to offer a sensible route for making the trip by car.

Why should that make any difference?

<snip sarcasm>

Depends on which train he needs to get. Even if PT was always the answer
(it's not), you still need to know which PT is.
--
Everything above is the personal opinion of the author, and nothing to do
with where he works and all that lovely disclaimery stuff.
Posted in his lunch hour too.

R L Driver

2004-08-15 00:56:05 UTC

above , we do live in an incredibly crowded little island and some bits (
thelwall viaduct for example) are just too crowded to work , then they wear
out with all the traffic and the problem compounds itself . If fuel was
cheaper then there would be even more cars! Its immediately apparent that
in France most people dont have to commute for an hour to get to work, so
the roads are much less crowded.
Steve the grease

David Thornber

2004-08-15 10:01:21 UTC

Post by R L Driver
above , we do live in an incredibly crowded little island and some bits (
thelwall viaduct for example) are just too crowded to work , then they wear
out with all the traffic and the problem compounds itself . If fuel was
cheaper then there would be even more cars! Its immediately apparent that
in France most people dont have to commute for an hour to get to work, so
the roads are much less crowded.

Thelwall actually worked very well with four lanes in each direction.
The problem is that, after building the new bridge, they took the
opportunity to replace the slip bearings on the old one. Unfortunately,
they replaced them with faulty ones, which have not only cracked, but
badly buggered up the bridge in the process. They reckon the repairs
are due to run to ten times the cost of building the bridge in the first
place.

What I don't understand is this bloody stupid SPECS enforced 40mph
limit. It's not to protect the workforce, because they're working on
the other bridge (fair enough, the northbound A57 traffic still uses it,
but that could have a separate limit to the main M6.) From memory, they
ran the new bridge as a 50mph contraflow when they were replacing the
bearings on the old one last time, so why 40mph and SPECS? Maybe it's
to pay for the repairs.

--
David Thornber

MeatballTurbo

2004-08-16 12:18:25 UTC

Post by --Tom--
Its interesting that this question rather ties in with "Rip off Britain"
above , we do live in an incredibly crowded little island and some bits (
thelwall viaduct for example) are just too crowded to work , then they wear
out with all the traffic and the problem compounds itself .

It's very much to do with ripoff britain.

When it was widened and the new bridge built, certain grades of concrete
were specified, with steel re-inforcement.
The money for that was spent.

The actual concrete used for the bearings lacked the metal re-
inforcement, so they broke up in less than 10 years.
the money was never located, and nobody in the supply chain is admitting
ordering or supplying deliberatley the wrong materials.

Now the Highways agency has given the repair job to the same firm who
buggered it up in the first, so they spend money, somewhere along the
line it goes missing, so they give them more money to fix it. All
taxpayers.

That is ripoff britain.

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http://www.bouncing-czechs.com

Andy Lord

2004-08-16 18:51:28 UTC

Post by MeatballTurbo

It's very much to do with ripoff britain.
When it was widened and the new bridge built, certain grades of concrete
were specified, with steel re-inforcement.
The money for that was spent.
The actual concrete used for the bearings lacked the metal re-
inforcement, so they broke up in less than 10 years.
the money was never located, and nobody in the supply chain is admitting
ordering or supplying deliberatley the wrong materials.
Now the Highways agency has given the repair job to the same firm who
buggered it up in the first, so they spend money, somewhere along the
line it goes missing, so they give them more money to fix it. All
taxpayers.

ISTR that the failed bearings are made of a speciality steel - not
reinforced concrete. The contractors responsible for the refurbishment were
AMEC whereas the new work is being carried out by John Martin Construction,
a division of Nuttall.

Andy

David Thornber

2004-08-16 18:17:45 UTC

Post by Andy Lord
ISTR that the failed bearings are made of a speciality steel - not
reinforced concrete. The contractors responsible for the refurbishment were
AMEC whereas the new work is being carried out by John Martin Construction,
a division of Nuttall.

I vaguely recall them showing one of the failed bearings on the telly
(back when the whole thing first started, while they were still
apologising for the inconvenience and promising to keep the public
informed.) IIRC it was a large steel roller, which had sheared pretty
much clean down the middle.

You wouldn't think it would be too difficult to replace them, but I
think the problem is the damage that's been done to the support pillars
and the bridge deck while the whole thing has been operating on the
failed bearings. I've never actually been over the old bridge since the
work started, but I'm told by someone who has that they've been drilling
through from the top.

I actually took a detour one morning last year to have a mooch under the
southern end of the bridge (it's not far out of my way if I end up going
through Lymm.) It was difficult to see much, as most of the work areas
were enclosed and towards the northern end of the bridge. I did find a
cordoned off area with some of the contractors' equipment, but apart
from that there was a notable lack of obvious workforce and support
vehicles. This was around 8:30am, so maybe they don't clock on until 9.

As far as I can work out, there's no public access to the underside of
the northern end. According to my sat-nav, there is a road that goes
under there, but it looks like it's more of a dirt track. Access seems
to be blocked to it in most places, and the one place that looked to
give access also featured a prominent dangerous dogs warning sign!

--
David Thornber

Andy Lord

2004-08-16 20:13:00 UTC

Construction,

Post by Andy Lord
a division of Nuttall.

No the problem is that the whole structure has to be jacked up seperately to
replace every bearing. I was chatting to a couple of the lads from the site
a few weeks back, they didn't mention any problems with the actual structure
of the bridge. They did however tell me that some further problems with
another type of bearing had been identified which *may* cause the works to
extend well into 2006.

Post by David Thornber
I've never actually been over the old bridge since the
work started, but I'm told by someone who has that they've been drilling
through from the top.

I go over it several times a day, I've never seen any evidence of this.

Post by David Thornber
I actually took a detour one morning last year to have a mooch under the
southern end of the bridge (it's not far out of my way if I end up going
through Lymm.) It was difficult to see much, as most of the work areas
were enclosed and towards the northern end of the bridge. I did find a
cordoned off area with some of the contractors' equipment, but apart
from that there was a notable lack of obvious workforce and support
vehicles. This was around 8:30am, so maybe they don't clock on until 9.
As far as I can work out, there's no public access to the underside of
the northern end. According to my sat-nav, there is a road that goes
under there, but it looks like it's more of a dirt track. Access seems
to be blocked to it in most places, and the one place that looked to
give access also featured a prominent dangerous dogs warning sign!

The dirt track is the route of the old Manchester Ship Canal Railway which
has had a bit of resurfacing work to allow the contractors site access. The
best access to the northern end is via Weir Lane in Woolston - do a left
onto the Mersey Way and you pass under the northernmost span (not much to
see though), or alternatively walk over the sluice and follow your nose
until you hit the Ship Canal. If the gates are open (and they often are) a
short walk will take you to where the work's going on. You'll be asked to
leave as soon as your spotted but you'll get a closer look at what's
happening first, if you're interested.

Andy

David Thornber

2004-08-16 19:53:30 UTC

Post by Andy Lord

Post by David Thornber
You wouldn't think it would be too difficult to replace them, but I
think the problem is the damage that's been done to the support pillars
and the bridge deck while the whole thing has been operating on the
failed bearings.

Well now I am confused. They've known all along that the bearings were
substandard, so it's a fair bet that they'd have to replace all of them.
I don't understand how this has gone from "We'll be done by Christmas"
to dragging on for... just how long has this been going on now? Doing
80 down the M62/M6 slip road seems like a very dim and distant memory
these days.

A sign has recently appeared on the northbound carriageway just after
J21, giving us hope for completion sometime in Spring of next year. I
won't believe it until the cones disappear though.

Post by Andy Lord

Post by David Thornber
I've never actually been over the old bridge since the
work started, but I'm told by someone who has that they've been drilling
through from the top.

I go over it several times a day, I've never seen any evidence of this.

My 'informant' must have been mistaken then. I'll slap him next time I
see him <g>.

Post by Andy Lord
The dirt track is the route of the old Manchester Ship Canal Railway which
has had a bit of resurfacing work to allow the contractors site access. The
best access to the northern end is via Weir Lane in Woolston - do a left
onto the Mersey Way and you pass under the northernmost span (not much to
see though), or alternatively walk over the sluice and follow your nose
until you hit the Ship Canal. If the gates are open (and they often are) a
short walk will take you to where the work's going on. You'll be asked to
leave as soon as your spotted but you'll get a closer look at what's
happening first, if you're interested.

If there's not much to see, then I'll give it a miss, but thanks for the
info. It would have been interesting to have visited the site regularly
(say once a week) and made a time lapse video of the progress made. I'm
betting the only change you'd see would be the weather.

--
David Thornber

Andy Lord

2004-08-16 21:44:33 UTC

Post by Andy Lord

Quite. The problem seems to be that as the work has progressed they've
discovered further problems. Initially it was just a few roller bearings
that needed replacing, then during that work they discovered that all the
roller bearings and some of the other type of bearings (can't remember what
they're called, sorry) would need replacing, then finally at a very late
stage they seem to have decided that all the other type of bearings may need
replacing.

Total cost so far is apparently over £50m, compared with the £27m it cost to
replace the entire decking, and some supports in 1996. The current
operations have taken over 2 years already compared with the 1 year taken
for the entire refurbishment.

Andy

Pete Smith

2004-08-15 06:25:50 UTC

In article <411d40b8$0$20248$***@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, --Tom--
@nospamKTHX.co.yk says...

Going straight to hell here, but (going Northbound), have you tried getting
in Lane 1, (Junction 20 only), getting off at J20, and then getting straight
back on the M6.

Whenever I've used Thelwall, the J20 only lane is always really quiet.

Don't know about going south though.

HTH

Pete.

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David Thornber

2004-08-15 10:13:08 UTC